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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
224
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Posted - 2015.09.23 05:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, this is going to be fairly stream-of-consciousness. Bear with me, please.
One thing that has struck me about the Commando suits is that they're described as suppression fighters... except that they aren't super good at suppressing. Yes, they've got that beast reload speed bonus and the handy-dandy damage bonus, but other than that they aren't very good at actually 'suppressing' things.
So here's my take on how to improve that suppressing-fire function on the Commandos.
Commando Skill Bonus
-5% Reload Speed per level
+10% Total Ammo Capacity per level
This would be the general "Commando" role bonus set- the reload speed as present, as well as a large bonus to total ammo capacity, allowing greater independence from nanohives and greater potential overwatch endurance.
Now, for the racial bonuses:
Minmatar
+2% Projectile/Explosive damage per level
+1% Explosive weapon Blast Radius per level
This allows the Minmatar suit to provide suppression fire with the MD, by giving it a slightly larger blast radius than on other suits. This is also why it's only a +1% per level bonus, rather than the 5%/level bonus of the MD ops skill. Having a roughly 51-55% increase in blast radius would be pretty ridiculous.
Also circumvents the potential issue of a clip capacity bonus infringing on the MinSalt's territory.
Gallente/Caldari
+2% Hybrid-Blaster/Hybrid-Railgun damage per level [respectively]
+10% Hybrid-Blaster/Hybrid-Railgun clip capacity per level [respectively]
So, here we get some sustained firepower. The Gal/Cal 'mandos get a 50% increase in their racial weapons clip capacity with racial Commando V- this means ARs with 105 rounds, RRs with 63, and ARRs with 87 rounds. Also, Sniper Rifles generally go to ~5 or 9 rounds, depending on the variant.
Shotguns would be 12 rounds, while the Breach Shotgun would be 3- definitely makes the GalMando a CQB powerhouse. Alas, it doesn't effect the Plasma Cannon- though I would personally be fine with the GalMando having a +20%/level bonus to compensate for the much shorter range of its weapons.
Amarr
+1% Laser damage per level
-3% Laser weapon Heat Buildup per level
More-or-less, the capacity bonus is completely irrelevant for laser weapons, because they'll always overheat long before they go empty (Viktor's LR excepted). Additionally, the Scrambler Rifle and LR are both heavily dependent on heat-related mechanics- as such, the Amarr Commando gets a lower straight damage bonus, in favor of including a weaker version of the AmSalt bonus.
The main reason for this is, as mentioned, the LR/ScR have such a heavy reliance on heat mechanics that, realistically, the Amarr Commando can't really work as well as the others with any other bonus. Unfortunately it does make the Amarr Commando a little bit samey-er with its Assault counterpart than the other Commando suits... but I would argue that this is more related to the mentioned heat mechanics WRT laser weapons.
So... thoughts, my fellow forumites? Maybe a CPM or two or just Breakin and Cross chiming in?
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
227
|
Posted - 2015.09.23 16:52:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cline MKP wrote:Grenades... we need grenades.
Or a second equipment slot.
Preferably grenades.
I'd actually prefer two equipment slots to grenades; having grenades would just make it feel like a heavy assault. Two equipment slots also means that I'd be able to pack a scanner (because Commandos are the most sensor-blind thing around) and links or nanos.
The problem with 2xEQ slots is whether that makes Logis less desirable. We've already been through a plague of Logi-lite and the massive uproar about 2xEQ scouts... a 2xEQ heavy would probably bring an even worse uproar.
zzZaXxx wrote:Commando bonuses are fine. That plus the two light weapons is the only reason to run them. Their problem is everything else: large hitbox, slow movement, slow recharge, no grenade, not enough module slots.
I rather disagree on the bonuses being fine, if only because the Amarr Commando is of little utility in my eyes. There's also the problem of MinMando being the Swarm suit rather than CalMando, but that's another topic entirely.
The lack of grenades isn't a big deal, IMO, because you can carry something that's much more versatile- either the Plasma Cannon or the MD. Slow recharge is an issue, but the lack of slots is not- they're heavy suits, and have the same slot count as all of the other heavies.
In terms of movement, a kincat pushes my GalMando up to around 6.27 m/s, AmMando to 5.96 m/s. Which I admit doesn't sound like much, but that is a basic kincat, and for a heavy suit that's pretty respectable speed.
At present, I consider the bonuses of the shield 'mandos being worthwhile to use with particular weapons- the MD/Swarms for MinMando, and the Sniper Rifle for CalMando. The bonus of the Gallente suit is pretty boss with the PLC, and I personally find the Shotgun to be a more consistent/reliable weapon when used on a GalMando suit than any other (though this is probably just me, TBH). The catch is that those weapons are, IMO, killer on any Commando suit, as the main benefit you get is the reload speed or the double light weapons.
Then there's the Amarr Commando, which has bonuses which don't synergize poorly, so much as not at all. It just doesn't work well- I'd much rather run an Amarr Assault if I want to use laser weapons, as the heavy dependence on heat buildup of those weapons makes the AmSalt vastly superior to the Commando- aside from the second light weapon.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
229
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Posted - 2015.09.24 01:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
Yeah, I have to agree with Pokey. There doesn't seem to be an overriding theme that defines the role, just a hodgepodge of bonuses that... TBH don't make any sense whatsoever.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
231
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Posted - 2015.09.25 19:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Breakin Stuff wrote:Changing Commandos so that not one of them performs remotely similarly to the others or is optimal for doing similar jobs defeats the purpose of racial flavor on a theme.
On that note, what do you think of my initial suggestions?
DDx77 wrote:And for no real good reason I dislike the damage bonus these suits get unilaterally. And fast reload is nice but I don't think it's useful for all weapon types.
I'd just like to say that while it's true that the reload bonus doesn't benefit all weapons, it does benefit some weapons in a really big way.
I fully expect to see GalMando+Breach SG to be a thing when Hotfix FoxFour drops, if only because I intend to try it with a PLC. Oh, yeah, speaking of PLC, that reload speed bonus is the most dope bonus ever for the PLC. It's also great for the MD, LR, Shotguns, and probably Swarms.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
235
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Posted - 2015.09.26 17:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
I think that that is a pretty good listing, except for the Gallente bonus. Part of this is because I don't think that the Gallente weapons have a particularly good enough range to get much benefit, but also because I think that the reload bonus on Commandos (or at least the GalMando) is amazing, especially for Plasma Cannons.
The other side of it is that I don't see why Commandos couldn't keep the current reload bonus, and just roll your own proposal (which is nice, BTW) into that- most suits actually have 3-4 discrete bonuses, even if they look like only two.
Ex: Assaults boast four bonuses (soon to be five for the GalSalt/CalSalt)- grenade fitting, sidearm fitting, light weapon fighting, and the racial bonus. Gal/Cal 'salts will be adding a RoF and recoil bonus, respectively.
Ex: Scouts boast 3-4 bonuses; cloak fitting, +profile/+precision [Gal], +profile/+scan range [Cal], +NK DMG/+Hack speed [Min], +Stamina amount/+stamina regen/+precision [Amarr]
Ex: Logis have 3 bonuses; equip fitting, and two equipment related bonuses
Ex: Sentinels have 4 bonuses; heavy weapon fitting, splash damage resistance, and two racially-appointed damage resists
So Commandos having 3 or 4 'discrete' bonuses is perfectly okay.
In which case the general Commando bonus would be +20% light weapon capacity and max ammo per level, and -5% reload speed per level, with the racial bonuses as you have described.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
236
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Posted - 2015.09.27 00:15:00 -
[6] - Quote
Kierkegaard Soren wrote:1) 20% increase to magazine capacity per level, 5% increase to reload speed per level: Suit Bonus.
I dig it.
Kierkegaard Soren wrote:2) Amarr specific: 2% reduction to damage of laser weapons per level, 10% decrease to heat reduction per shot per level.
Is there a typo there that says that you do 2% less damage per level? Because I think that that would instantly make nobody pick the Amarr Commando if at suit L5 you had a -10% damage penalty to the racially appropriate weapons.
With such an enormous heat bonus though, I can get down with just the heat bonus though- at 10%/level, it's basically double-bonused, so I would say that the capacity, reload speed, and heat bonuses are perfectly sufficient.
Kierkegaard Soren wrote:Gallente specific: 5% reduction to charge time of hybrid-plasma weapons per level.
Caldari specific: 5% reduction to charge time of hybrid-rail weapons per level.
I get the rail charge bonus, and it's alright (though I think there could be better options), but what's with the GalMando bonus? The only plasma weapon that has a charge time is the Plasma Cannon, and the Operation skill for it already cuts down on an already short charge time (0.6sec base, IIRC it's 0.45sec at Ops5).
Kierkegaard Soren wrote:Minmatar specific: 5% increase to magazine capacity and spare ammo capacity per level.
Spare ammo? Yes. An extra magazine capacity bonus? Not really digging it. I would actually say that a small blast radius bonus would be more interesting, particularly since the Minmatar "suppression" weapon is definitely the Mass Driver.
Kierkegaard Soren wrote:3) Commandos to be given a second equipment slot that comes pre-fitted with a "hardwired" nanohive, of STD quality, that replenishes ammo at a constant rate for the commando only.
Suppression achieved.
TBH I think the best way to balance dual Equip slots for Commandos is to give them just enough of a fitting buff to comfortably fill out their 2xLight, H/L, and one Equipment slot... with a little bit of PG/CPU left over. This means that you have to make some tradeoffs and sacrifices (or use fitting mods *gasp*!)
Alternately, giving all of them a reserve ammo bonus as well makes them much more independent of nanohives, allowing for greater versatility in equipment selection.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
245
|
Posted - 2015.09.27 21:58:00 -
[7] - Quote
Snipped for brevity because lawlcharacterlimits.
Kierkegaard Soren wrote:*snip well-written post about Amarr 'mando bonus*
That's a consideration I hadn't thought of before. I do admit, however, that I'd much prefer some laser AV showing up... but I think that's something we can probably both agree on.
Kierkegaard Soren wrote:*snip GalMando/CalMando logic*
The issue I see is that the PLC charge is so short already that the bonus has little practical effect. Moreover, I've never encountered a time when I think "gee, if only my PLC could charge even faster!" Mostly I think "if only it could reload faster", or "if only it did more [splash] damage".
Kierkegaard Soren wrote:*snip MinMando logic*
I'd argue that the MinMando getting a blast radius bonus would be a better suppression fighter design, as the ACR doesn't have much range (unlike the RR/SR/LR), and the CR isn't very good for suppressing things. A MD though? Especially, say, an Assault MD with mega-death-mode blast radius?
Yeah, that'd suppress all the things ever. It's also a fairly interesting bonus, IMO, that diversifies it.
I think the big issue with the Amarr bonuses is really that the laser weapons available tend to all be a tad samey in terms of how they apply damage- that being a hitscan beam/shot, unlike the physical projectile MD, PLC, and Swarms (the lattermost of which is a lockon fire-and-forget weapon), or the multi-pellet blast of a shotgun.
TBH I personally think the Amarr Light-AV weapon should be a beamrider guided missile system, fluffed as firing EMP warheads to attain the "laser" damage type. Such a weapon would work by locking on to a target, but then requiring the player to hold the lock through the missile's flight.
However, this would be if using the ADS function; if just "firing from the hip", it would be a dumbfire weapon flying on a ballistic arc, though with a tiny splash radius. An "Assault" variant would dispense with the lockon function entirely, massively reduce impact damage and dial up splash radius/damage for what would effectively be an Amarrian MD.
Sounds pretty boss, eh?
Pokey Dravon wrote:So under your proposal the Gallente Commando bonus would provide a +159% bonus to DPS on a normal plasma cannon...Do you really feel this is a wise course of action?
Not Soren, but I personally think that it is incredibly unwise. However, I also want that to happen because it would be hilariously entertaining.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
254
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Posted - 2015.09.29 03:07:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kierkegaard Soren wrote:Ok, here's the thing about the PLC as an AV-weapon; it's terrible.
I dunno, I did 2-shot a Sica with a standard-level PLC once. OTOH, I did also have GalMando 4, PLC Prof 3, and 2 basic light damage mods as well (actually, I think it was only one damage mod at the time).
Still, it can work very well.
Kierkegaard Soren wrote:Edit: The Amarr laser MD/Swarm hybrid sounds extremely good, and I would love to have that in my weapons locker.
It's basically a more player skill intensive Swarm that can dumbfire or lock on, and uses the laser damage profile. We could probably even use existing art assets to bring it in.
I'll probably make a post about that at some point.
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Victor Moody Stahl
Amarr Templars
Amarr Empire
268
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Posted - 2015.10.01 17:48:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jakkal Shoobah wrote:*snip well-reasoned post for brevity*
If you go over the OP again, that's pretty much entirely what I've done.
Jakkal Shoobah wrote:I strongly disagree with any ewar buffs you proposed.
I have proposed no EWAR buffs to Commandos, and I think that buffing Commando EWAR is the wrong approach.
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